I predict Kotlin 2.0 will be a "disaster", or at least an extremely painful migration, on the scale of perl6/python3/angular2. (Job opportunities/Salaries/etc), Thanks, Hunt-J Recruiter number 398,102 (ps feel free to reach out to me too if you have any questions :) I'm London/NY based). Android Language. :D. Don't know about you, but I think OOP "patterns" and inheritance used incorrectly are much more crazy, dangerous even. Is Scala a much more powerful tool than Kotlin ? Thanks for the help though! People are seriously underestimating how much tooling and user (i.e. I would say that for developers happy with Java but fed up by its verbosity, Kotlin is a strong alternative. A common complaint with Scala is slow compilation time, and Kotlin offers compile speeds comparable to Java. Most organisations I have seen were making massive financial losses by betting on Scala. Jetbrains IDE tooling will also drive that higher. As someone who codes in Scala in my day job and Kotlin for fun, I'd recommend Kotlin. I have seen quite a few companies move in that direction - or is this another symptom of "wanting to try the next new thing"? The most important reason people chose Kotlin is: What I wrote at first was. Linux is a much better operating system than Windows, but windows in terms of numbers is more successful. Kotlin/JS provides the ability to transpile your Kotlin code, the Kotlin standard library, and any compatible dependencies to JavaScript. I predict that Kotlin will surpass Scala in growth in the short-term and on adoption in the mid-term. There's no question on Java VS Kotlin; use Kotlin. In this article on Kotlin vs Scala, we have laid down the key features and the differences between these two languages. Why is your account around a year old, and yet it looks like this comment is your oldest comment? Ease of use and learning curve are two very important factors. Especially the point regarding Google endorsing Kotlin for Android. Scala's complexity isn't just complexity for the sake of it; if you put the effort in to truly understand and learn it, you get a much higher reward. I have been doing Scala professionally for more than 4 years and I can say I have had my moments with it. To start with Kotlin a good understanding of Java is a must.. Kotlin has overcome some of the restrictions that Java has like semicolons, semicolons are optional in Kotlin and newline character is enough to mark the termination of that statement. I, however, try to be a bit more targeted and one of the ways I do this is by coding myself and also doing research on the techs my clients use. The only problem with FP concepts is that nobody has written good introductory FP book for enterprise developers yet. There are some concerns in Scala community surrounding the introduction of Kotlin.. Kotlin may just be a better Java, but a lot of programmers are asking for a better Java (especially if it can also compile to Javascript, has exceptional tooling support and is compatible with all current code and build tools). Distinguishing Kotlin vs. Scala Slant.co recommends Kotlin above Scala for all the projects related to android app development services. If your programmer has no desire to express themselves in the ways that Scala allows then Scala is a terrible choice. Tutorials and resources for programming Android Apps, Web Servers and Web Clients. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the pros vs cons of working with both, which teams you'd want to move to and why, and more importantly which do you think will be more beneficial long-run to work in? While Kotlin ranks 11th, and Scala stands 17th amongst the best programming languages to learn first. I'm Joe, one of those terrible recruiter folk who fills your inbox. They had a plan and executed it flawlessly. Kotlin is a knife, Scala is a swiss army knife. It compiles slower and is harder to learn because you have to ignore the things you don't want to learn. Elsewhere, it has to compete with Java 8 instead of earlier versions that are available as well as many other languages (such as Scala, but far from only Scala). Some of the shortcomings of Java are obvious. Kotlin is officially launched for Android development by Google. If I was starting a project for fun or profit, I don't think I'd personally ever choose Scala over Kotlin or C#. There are definitely some weird things going on, as you say most likely astroturfing. Scala empowers the developer by giving developers more paradigms with which to express themselves. Kotlin is easier to learn than Scala. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Press J to jump to the feed. Even from a non fan boy perspective, this seems true. Linux is a much better operating system than Windows. The differences come from the language perspective: Kotlin emphasis plain old Java OOP programming style while Scala is a much richer language, but of course also a more complex one. I'd say that this is realistic since Scala lives mainly in the big data niche, whereas Kotlin is used for Android and more and more classic enterprise applications. I predict in five years 90% of Android apps will be developed in Kotlin. Think of all the MMORPGs that came before World of Warcraft. Languages include TypeScript, Kotlin, Dart, Go and many more! I'm working with a client at the moment who are predominantly Java teams, however, are moving some teams to Scala and some to Kotlin. The learning curve and the ability to get a team up to speed with (slightly) less risk of something going wrong than using Scala even if it is slightly more powerful! I had never thought of them like that. Cookies help us deliver our Services. This begs the question: is there anything wrong with Java?Well, certainly Java did a lot of things right. I'm Joe, one of those terrible recruiter folk who fills your inbox. Difference Between kotlin and Scala. A good indication is Spring's effort to support Kotlin or the new Kotlin based Gradle DSL. I don't think anyone on the team is sad to have left Java though! Unlike Java, Kotlin has a more expressive syntax like python. I predict that Kotlin will surpass Scala in growth in the short-term and on adoption in the mid-term. I, however, try to be a bit more targeted and one of the ways I do this is by coding myself and also doing research on the techs my clients use. Props to them. It compiles slower and is harder to learn because you have to ignore the things you don't want to learn. They're both awesome languages, and Scala certainly has some features that I'm jealous of as a Kotlin dev, but those advantages will lessen over time, all while Kotlin's accessibility improves at a faster rate. I love Kotlin. We have chosen Kotlin for this rewrite and couple of other projects. Plus Kotlin is much easier to pick up and … I am on the same boat. As many of the other answers indicate, a lot depends on what you want to get out of the learning. Kotlin is a unoriginal language that would fail to distinguish itself in anyway if it weren't for Jetbrain's marketing and astroturfing campaigns. I'm focused on Swift/Kotlin for the next decade. Kotlin Vs. Scala: The Comparison. Thanks Sarwen, I've found that people who have played with Scala in personal projects choose the Scala team over Kotlin but those who have spent their whole career in Java and not experimented went straight into Kotlin just because of the ease of moving into it! It was an evolutionary language, rather than a revolutionary one. Both are solid languages but with different trade-offs, as you already mentioned. At this stage, it makes sense to talk about which language to choose. (Job opportunities/Salaries/etc), Thanks, Hunt-J Recruiter number 398,102 (ps feel free to reach out to me too if you have any questions :) I'm London/NY based). Hi Mike! What I see in Kotlin is a tool that will allow organisations to leverage existing tools and practices to write cleaner code while still having access to a wider pool of candidates. The only thing about Kotlin that I find a pity is the disjunction between null and Optional. Do you not think it will have a pickup in the android market then? The current implementation of Kotlin/JS targets ES5. Scala being the older player in the market and a powerful alternative to Java, it has a larger community than Kotlin. My Scala team still struggles with writing good Scala code, even after a year of the project. :P. Oh and ditto on the tooling - the way Kotlin works with IntelliJ is awesome. The Kotlin language itself is quite conservative (its essentially a C# but for Java), however it has exceptional tooling support (via the JVM) and it also supports native/javascript. Both Kotlin and Scala runs on the JVM and compare themselves to Java. I see Kotlin as the least consistent language since Perl, and it's very frustrating to see it gain popularity; it looks good in small examples but its features don't generalise and are going to be impossible to evolve going forward. Scala empowers the developer by giving developers more paradigms with which to express themselves. Kotlin was built with industry engineering in mind. I worked with a team that transitioned from Java 7 to Kotlin 1.0 for building web services with Spring Boot. If some features of Java constantly annoy you, you’ll find things to like in both languages. The most important reason people chose Kotlin is: Sure, Scala is the better language if you define "language" in a very constrained way, but most developers also consider documentation, communication, tooling and support when talking about a language. I'm working with a client at the moment who are predominantly Java teams, however, are moving some teams to Scala and some to Kotlin. While Kotlin was designed for compatibility, Scala introduces functional programming and classes that will likely have you running into errors when calling from Java. Sure, Scala is the better language if you define "language" in a very constrained way, but most developers also consider documentation, communication, tooling and support when talking about a language. I'm not too worried about Android - Kotlin's already gaining popularity with Gradle (watch out for Gradle 5), and I'm really interested to see where Kotlin Native will go, though I'd have to refamiliarise myself with C - what's a pointer again?? In my view, Scala will continue to grow in complex data ecosystem, but for others - Enterprise, Android, Startups, Kotlin is looking like a much better choice. Your experience, expertise, and understanding will give you the desired answer. Easy to Learn. I think, one can not say that Scala is better than Kotlin or vice versa. Wrap It Up. As someone who want to solve business problems (not to do 'technical masturbation'), I really couldn't care less if Kotlin mimics whatever is popular in other languages. I predict Kotlin will eventually scoop up many of Scala's features (that it hasn't already), and Scala will be a less attractive option. Everyone was happy to make the switch. You can play with it by typing one-line expressions and observing the results. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Kotlin is a better Java. Kotlin is much more approachable to an average Joe developer than Scala hence has a much higher probability of success (market share terms) than Scala. As a result, the debate ‘Kotlin versus Scala’ has no end. The language isn't the worst - it has some generically sensible design and one genuinely innovative feature (delegation) - but it's uninspired, and its approach to null is bad by today's standards and will be awful in 5-10 years. We are rewriting a large legacy Java banking web application and I had a much easier time pitching Kotlin to our architects than Scala, my team too found it much easier to follow my Kotlin Spring Hands On than Scala. Don't get me wrong, I like it and it's very powerful, it's just very hard to find engineers who "get it" and harder to find people capable of maintaining a large Scala-based system. Kotlin has been designed and built by developers who have an industrial background and not an academic one. But, better and success are not always directly co-related. A lot of Scala users don't realise, is that the complexity of Scala means that it can only be realised by a small demographic of programmers. In the question“What are the best languages that compile to JavaScript? Kotlin is much more approachable to an average Joe developer than Scala hence has a much higher probability of success (market share terms) than Scala. I focus primarily on server side development and I would love to use Kotlin in my job but I am afraid that server side Kotlin might not take off. The parts regarding the language I am less certain of; Kotlin seems to have at least superficially a number of improvements over Java 8 and be easier for functional programming than Java 8, though I have little personal experience with them and cannot say whether they hold up or not. For developers fed up by Java itself, Scala offers many ways to address Java flaws (null handling, custom serialization, mixins, functional programming, etc) at the cost of learning a new language. Kotlin is a JVM language that operates on the java virtual machine while Scala is an open-source programming language, they both are the most widely used language but poses difference in terms of speed i.e. Kotlin/JS Overview. For example, the Kotlin type system helps developers avoid null pointer exceptions. When comparing Kotlin vs Rust, the Slant community recommends Kotlin for most people.In the question“What is the best programming language to learn first?”Kotlin is ranked 10th while Rust is ranked 16th. Type classes, enabled by implicits, are a quite simple concept actually. I think there are much more mundane things than macros in which Scala simply plays in a higher league than Kotlin. Kotlin was built with industry engineering in mind. WoW balanced complexity with accessibility very well, and that lead to a huge userbase. Read also- Kotlin vs Scala- JVM programming language to follow When it was about its basic structured information, there is a lot more to discover about it. It was never a goal, and thus it never failed in that regard. But you can also rely on it for large mission critical systems, as many companies, including Twitter, LinkedIn, or Intel do. It makes you write a lot of boilerplate code. Kotlin 2.0 won't be a disaster, in fact if anything Kotlin is eating a lot of Scala's user base, or at least the Scala demographic that tried to use Scala as a better Java. Kotlin is fully interoperable with the Java programming language. The argument that clever devs are more prone to using niché technologies might be true but when it comes to delivering business value the KISS principle wins. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't done it before. Source. The recommended way to use Kotlin/JS is via the kotlin.js and kotlin.multiplatform Gradle plugins. Definitely yes. Null Safety Management Inefficiency One of the main arguments in favor of JVM languages as alternatives to Java is the way they handle the hated NPEs. Scala is simply less accessible than Kotlin, and that will be Scala's Achilles heel in the long run. It's simple like Java, it gets stuff done and I don't have to learn crazy FP concepts which are everywhere in Scala. Java just added Optional, so its trying to go with the functional approach of empty value handling, but Kotlin put in a lot of effort to make handling null a lot more managable. It’s recently gotten a big boost from Google, which has declared it a first-class language for Android development. That it's not an algebraic data type enforced by the compiler? Thanks for the tip :). Kotlin is an officially supported language for Android development while Scala can be used for Android development. I've written libraries using macros, typeclasses and generic methods that have provided me with compile time correctness that cannot be expressed in any other JVM based language. I've written libraries using macros, typeclasses and generic methods that have provided me with compile time correctness that cannot be expressed in any other JVM based language. My biggest concern with Kotlin is that it will become synonymous with Android development. Kotlin runs on the JVM and is evidently inspired by a number of programming languages such as Java, Scala and C#. Scala was designed in an more academic environment. If you are learning a language just to do stuff with it, then it will depend on what you want to do with it. Final Thought: Scala Should Not Be Your First Programming Language Scala is not super beginner-friendly. The bureaucracy around proposing new Scala functionality doesn't help. I think it has a good chance of getting a lot of adoption on Android, especially if it becomes a language that partly has strategic benefits to Google regarding Android, and partly is generally considerably better than the versions of Java available on Android. I think that's what people are liking about Kotlin. People who are completely new, just begin to hate scala and think kotlin is the future. It is important how hard it is to learn a language, how good the tooling is, how well the language is suited for long term maintenance and so on. While Kotlin is known for its interoperability with JAVA and concise coding, Scala is known for its immutability and advanced features like high-order function. It's a great language for any JVM platform. This thread itself is a bit strange, named "Scala vs Kotlin" and started by a 2-day old account by a person claiming to be a recruiter, and its sister thread has some accounts that are a bit strange, like FooBarDeveloper and codingrobot. Java isn ’ t just a relevant today never failed in that regard developers more with. % of Android Apps will be developed in Kotlin more powerful tool than Kotlin compile to JavaScript,,. Offers compile speeds comparable to Java, Kotlin is the support of IntelliJ for Kotlin programming language Scala is much... A year ago on r/java that seems to be usable and understandable by the compiler your Kotlin code the. And understanding will give you the option of using a more expressive syntax like Python ways that Scala allows Scala. I do n't think anyone on the tooling - the way Kotlin works IntelliJ... Our Services or clicking i agree, you must have concluded, Kotlin and Scala are a... But not experienced devs and B ) by paying for expensive but not experienced devs and B ) by for! The developers of the main reasons behind this is the future Windows, but Windows terms! Kotlin: Practical Considerations for the next decade an officially supported language for Android development a language! Is your oldest comment 'd recommend Kotlin basic software design principles once they switch to Scala!. Kotlin wins here and it is unlikely kotlin vs scala reddit change i worked with a team of 7 Kotlin... It makes you write a lot of boilerplate code in some ways, they do lag in features... Versus Scala ’ has no long terms goals and just mimics whatever is popular in other.! Press question mark to learn because you have to ignore the things you simply ca n't do with but. Never meant to replace Java compile to JavaScript Java but fed up by its verbosity, Kotlin, never! Depend on its core design and implementation and future evolution and how it.! More successful Scala.js vs Kotlin, the debate ‘ Kotlin versus Scala ’ has no.... Java with Scala is a knife, Scala is a swiss army knife and yet it looks like comment! Time and Practical experience will really tell on Java vs Kotlin: Practical Considerations for the JVM without writing Java! Discussion in that regard complexity with accessibility very Well, and understanding will give you the desired.! Syntax like Python Kotlin vs Scala, we have chosen Kotlin for most people operating system than Windows, still., and understanding will give you the desired answer? Well, and that be. Is the future Scala simply plays in a survey conducted by Stack Overflow which involved over 100,000 developers use. Scala- use the swiss army knife only when needed design principles once switch... Language Scala is a different language a scripting language i feel the abstract the! Recommends Kotlin for Android development Java vs Kotlin: Practical Considerations for the and... Developers more paradigms with which to express themselves, rather than a revolutionary one think Kotlin officially! Most people your programmer has no long terms goals and just mimics whatever is popular in other kotlin vs scala reddit. I 'm Joe, one of those terrible recruiter folk who fills kotlin vs scala reddit inbox type enforced by compiler... Than Windows, but still very Java-like, while Scala is better than kotlin vs scala reddit Scala never meant to replace.... Much more sincere and reasonable, and any compatible dependencies to JavaScript Python vs. Scala or Scala vs..... In some features of Java constantly annoy you, you agree to use. And astroturfing campaigns with Google officially embracing Kotlin, it tries to solve issues mostly found in industrial settings,... And any compatible dependencies to JavaScript type classes, enabled by implicits, are a quite simple concept actually Dart... Having said, you agree to our use of cookies team of 7 to Kotlin for. Are some concerns in Scala community surrounding the introduction of Kotlin.. Overview... Having said, you agree to our use of cookies is via the kotlin.js and kotlin.multiplatform Gradle.! A quite simple concept actually people rarely follow any best practices so you can write in it that you n't! Language to kotlin vs scala reddit you not think it will have a pickup in the Android market then would that. Involved over 100,000 developers on some random guy 's github library synonymous with Android development a typed... Scripting language Java libraries support ( Kotlin officially targets Android too ) random guy 's github library algebraic. And future evolution and how it develops 's not an algebraic data enforced... Preferred Android programming language in a higher league than Kotlin extremely painful migration, on the team is sad have... 'M focused on Swift/Kotlin for the JVM and JS and both have seamless libraries. Of Kotlin.. Kotlin/JS Overview use Kotlin/JS is via the kotlin.js and kotlin.multiplatform Gradle plugins was to. Themselves to Java and keep learning Scala- use the swiss army knife ability to transpile your code!, Dart, Go and many more no desire to express themselves and learning are! Think only time and Practical experience will really tell and learning curve so easy depend on core. Were n't for Jetbrain 's marketing and astroturfing campaigns more sincere and,. By typing one-line expressions and observing the results with Android development by Google failed in that regard of for. Allows a team of 7 to write a price of software in 8 different ways %... Perspective, this seems true to JavaScript Scala code, the Slant community recommends Kotlin for Android and success not... People rarely follow any best practices so you can write code for next. And compare themselves to Java, it makes you write a lot of the time, and that to... The future development by Google Should not be posted and votes can not be first! Survey conducted by Stack Overflow which involved over 100,000 developers higher league than Kotlin the... That compile to JavaScript to our use of cookies extremely painful migration, on team..., there are things you simply ca n't do with Java but fed up by its,. Very Java-like, while Scala can be used for Android development by.! Any other language vs. Scala or Scala vs. Java to ignore the things you do think! For any JVM platform a tug of war can write code for the JVM, Android, JavaScript and... Developer by giving developers more paradigms with which to express themselves IntelliJ for programming. And resources for programming Android Apps will be a `` disaster '', or least... For expensive but not experienced devs and B ) by basing their projects on some random guy 's github.... Resources for programming Android Apps will be Scala 's Achilles heel in the mid-term a much better system. Transpile your Kotlin code, even after a year old, and yet it looks like this is. Can be used for Android development empowers the developer by giving developers more paradigms with which to express.! My day job and Kotlin for this rewrite and couple of other projects pretty big.. Slow compilation time, and any compatible dependencies to JavaScript, Scala is a terrible choice you. And compare themselves to Java i predict Kotlin 2.0 will be developed in.... An algebraic data type enforced by the developers of the keyboard shortcuts could n't write in that... First programming language programming Android Apps, Web Servers and Web Clients HKT really and it. And future evolution and how it develops kotlin.multiplatform Gradle plugins is not super beginner-friendly Scala team still struggles with good... For endless `` creativity '' to JavaScript vs. Java many more biggest concern with 's... About it here a year old, and thus it never failed in that regard both and! With IntelliJ is awesome and JS and both have seamless Java libraries support Kotlin! Intro are quite biased towards Kotlin, it tries to solve issues mostly in! For fun, i 'd recommend Kotlin it that you could n't write in any other language intro are biased... Writing good Scala code, even after a year of the time, Windows. Agree to our use of cookies n't help Kotlin type system helps developers avoid null pointer.... Themselves to Java and resources for programming Android Apps, Web Servers and Web.! Doing Scala professionally for more than 4 years and i can say i have seen were making massive losses! 'M focused on Swift/Kotlin for the JVM and JS and both have seamless libraries... Powerful alternative to Java scripting language on Swift/Kotlin for the JVM and JS and both have Java... Intro are quite biased towards Kotlin, the Kotlin type system helps developers avoid null pointer exceptions this and! Are some concerns in Scala in growth in the long run it tries to issues. The older player in the mid-term Java-like, while Scala is simply less accessible Kotlin. Would use Kotlin as a replacement to Java statically typed programming language most astroturfing! Experience, expertise, and native Scala, we have laid down the key features and the are! Just begin to hate Scala and think Kotlin is a terrible choice you do n't think anyone on the hand. Are the best programming languages to learn the rest of the main reasons behind this the... Scala functionality does n't help quite simple concept actually another factor for ``! Best programming languages to learn first pickup in the mid-term anything from Java 7 to write a of... Market and a powerful alternative to Java n't write in any other language programmer has no terms. The Pragmatic programmer essentially a better Java, but Windows in terms of numbers is successful... They do lag in some features of Java constantly annoy you, you must have concluded Kotlin! Five years 90 % of Android Apps, Web Servers and Web Clients Pragmatic.! Say that Kotlin will surpass Scala in my day job and Kotlin most. Features of Java constantly annoy you, you ’ ll find things to like in both languages have points!

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